where does the furshlugginer comma go with quotation marks?

WHERE DOES THE FURSHLUGGINER COMMA GO IN A QUOTE? Sometimes it’s within the quotation marks, sometimes it’s outside those same quote marks! Same with periods! And where do colons and semi-colons go? And en-dashes and em-dashes? And lawdymissclawdy, what about quotes within quotes? As the old man in Moonstruck says at the end of the movie, “I’m a-confused. . . .”

Well, in fact there are two different ways for using certain punctuation marks in the English language; both are correct and both pop up all over the Internet. When reading various sites, I am generally uncertain as to whether or not the writer knows which style he is using and why.

American English is much closer to being a universal constant than British English.

English as a language that can be recognized as English (if with great effort) by a contemporary reader extends back to the late 16th century. English is now the third most common native language in the world (after Mandarin and Spanish), and an official language of almost sixty sovereign states.

It is recognized as a global lingua franca, or common language, and may become the lingua franca of the future!

There are two forms of written English:

•  British English (BrE) is used in the United Kingdom, and includes all English dialects used in the UK. There are slight regional variations even in formal, written BrE.

•  American English (AmE) is used in the United States, and includes all English dialects used in the fifty states. Due to the unprecedented success and hegemony of popular American entertainment culture (primarily movies and recorded pop/rock music), AmE is becoming the bridge language around the world.

Strunk and White on quotation marks

William Strunk Jr and E.B. White and their heirs keep it real simple in each and every edition of The Elements Of Style:

“Question marks and exclamation marks are placed inside quotation marks if they belong to the quotation, outside if they do not. The same logical rule may be employed for commas and periods, and commonly is outside the United States, but US publishers continue to adhere to the older rule that places commas and periods inside the quotation marks always.” (emphasis added)

For curious readers and novice writers who want more detail and some examples, here are the “rules” in a shutnell. And yes, there are many sites on the Internet offering instruction by much more authoritative voices than mine, but you’re here so read on . . .


Like, is it “Hello,” or is it “Hello”, ya know?

Commas with quote marks

In American English, writers place the punctuation ending a phrase or sentence inside the quotation marks:

“I am confused as to what you mean when you say that you want me to make it so,” the ship’s doctor told her patient.

(Text within quotation marks is usually speech or conversation in fiction, and a quoted statement in non-fiction. I simply refer to it as speech from this point on in this article.)

This is the way almost all Americans and all non-Americans who rely on American books, journals, manuals, etc., use these punctuation marks.

But this is not universal: in British English writers place the comma or period outside the quotation marks:

“I am confused as to what you mean when you say that you want me to make it so”, the ship’s doctor told her patient.

This actually makes the most sense: the quotation marks bracket the first and last words in the speech—where they should be. The comma outside the ending quotation mark separates the speech from the person who has spoken.

That is, BrE more clearly delineates speech from speaker.

Nonetheless, for those of us who have lived with AmE all or lives, it looks ungainly.

And very, very wrong . . .


You can write “Make it so.” or you can write “Make it so”.

Periods with quote marks

In American English, writers place the period ending speech inside the quotation marks:

The ship’s doctor told her patient, “I am confused as to what you mean when you say that you want me to make it so.”

In British English, writers place the period ending speech outside the quotation marks:

The ship’s doctor told her patient, “I am confused as to what you mean when you say that you want me to make it so”.

 

It is never “Make it so;” It is always “Make it so”; now make it so!

Colons and semi-colons with quote marks

American English and British English are in accord here, with both colons (:) and semi-colons (;) always placed outside of the quote marks:

Berni and I are watching the television series “The Good Wife”; we tend to enjoy shows about lawyers and have several reasons why we think this is one of the best. One of the reasons is the cast of “The Good Wife”: Julianna Margulies with Christine Baranski, Josh Charles, Alan Cumming, Michael J. Fox, Matthew Goode, Chris Noth, and my fave, Archie Panjabi.

Colons and semi-colons confuse many writers, which is a shame as they are both very useful forms of punctuation.


So, is it “How shall I make it so?” or is it “How shall I make it so”?

Question marks with quote marks

Exactly where to place a question mark (?) depends on the sentence: if the question mark is part of the speech, it stays inside the quote marks:

“So, just how can I make it so for my captain-waptain?” purred Beverly to Jean-Luc.

If the question mark is not part of the speech, it goes outside the closing quote marks:

Wesley turned to Deanna and asked her if he had correctly heard his mother call his commanding officer “captain-waptain”?


Um, is it “Oh!” or is it “Oh”! or don’t you know?

Exclamation marks with quote marks

An exclamation mark or point (!) is used the same as a question mark: if the mark is part of the speech, it stays inside the quote marks:

The captain turned to the ship’s doctor and ejaculated, “Just make it so, damn it!”

If the exclamation mark is not part of the speech, it goes outside the closing quote marks:

I thought the captain was gonna blow a gasket when he ordered the ship’s doctor to “make it so”!


Mooting a summit on punctuation and quote marks

Suppose we had a summit on determining an international set of rules for all users of written English. We would need representatives from the two groups most affected by the current variations: professional writers (versus the rest of us: they need the rules as their livelihood depends upon it) and typographers (although with computers and the Internet and blogging many of us are now our own typesetters). 1

Bloggers make their sites inviting to casual visitors often become rookie typographers by default.

Whether we like it or not—whether it’s the most logical (and therefore the closest to walking the Stunkian path) or not—the American English is much closer to being a universal constant than British English is, and perhaps ever will be. 2

At this time, were you to twist my arm into giving advice on this topic, I would be forced to suggest that any writer beginning to work with the labyrinthine nuances of the English language in an international forum should opt for BrE for logic and consistency, and warn them that ArE is probably the way of the future. 3


Comma_photo

HEADER IMAGE: I found the fabulous illustration at the top of this page gracing an article titled “The Wonderment of This Taxonomy” on the University of Alabama’s Studying Religion in Culture website. Unfortunately, there is no credit given the artist.

 
 

Strunk_Elements_(5)_600

William Strunk Jr’s original edition of The Elements Of Style (1919) was all of fifty-three pages long. In 1959, it was revised and expanded by one of his students, the famous children’s book author E.B. White. It is one of the best selling and most influential grammar and punctuation books ever published. I have used the authors’ names for one of the categories of this site: Strunkandwhiten It! For more information, refer to “On William Strunk and Elements of Style.”



 

FOOTNOTES:

1   There is even differences in the use of single quote marks (‘What?’) and double quote marks (“Huh?”) between American and British English. The American way places initial speech in double quote marks and interior speech in single quote marks:

Last night Berni asked me, “What was it the old man said at the end of the ‘Moonstruck’ movie?”

The British way places initial speech in single quote marks and interior speech in double quote marks:

Last night Berni asked me, ‘What was it the old man said at the end of the “Moonstruck” movie?’

This seems to be changing, as most of the sites that I visit use the American way . . .

2   Ooh! Ooh! Special guests of honor could include Lynne Truss (Eats, Shoots & Leaves), Patricia T. O’Conner (Woe Is I!), Mary Norris (Between You & Me), and Karen Elizabeth Gordon (The New Well-Tempered Sentence).

3   This is really no advice at all, heyna?


7 Replies to “where does the furshlugginer comma go with quotation marks?”

  1. I know that I, probably more than occasionally,malappropriate my punctuation. But, I sometimes get intentional about it.
    After all, I’m the guy who spent countless hours in remedial spelling over spelling and pronouncing my last name! I’m to this day thankful to spell-check every time I type words like “receipt”.
    “I’ve got blisters on my fingers!”

    1. The fork is a latecomer to the table. Knives are the descendants of sharpened hand axes—among the oldest human tools. The shape of the fork has been around a lot longer than the eating utensil: in ancient Greece, Poseidon brandished a trident while mortals had large forked tools to pull food out of boiling pots.

      But the fork didn’t have a place at the Greek table, where people used spoons, knife points, and their hands.

      In the 8th or 9th century, some Persian nobility may have used a forklike tool. In the 11th century, forks were in use in the Byzantine Empire. An illustrated manuscript from that period shows two men using two-pronged forklike instruments at a table.

      St. Peter Damian, a hermit and ascetic, criticized a Byzantine-born Venetian princess for her excessive delicacy: “Such was the luxury of her habits that she deigned not to touch her food with her fingers, but would command her eunuchs to cut it up into small pieces, which she would impale on a certain golden instrument with two prongs and thus carry to her mouth.”

      Damian was sufficiently offended by the woman’s table manners that when she died of the plague, he regarded it as a just punishment from God for her vanity.

      “But what of the spoon?” you ask.

      It is likely that the first spoons derived from whichever local objects were used to scoop up liquid. The word for spoon in both Latin and Greek derives from a snail shell while the Anglo-Saxon ‘spon’ means chip.

      But that can wait until after I have a bowl of shredded wheat with honey, raisins, and bananas . . .

  2. I really like this little series, especially the pietures of Mr. Strunk. He looks exactly like I always imagined. Something on the order of a gentlemanly spy in an Eric Ambler novel. I think next you should take up the long dash versus the short dash. I recently had a professional editor tell me that NOBODY uses long dashes anymore. If true, I think that’s going to make the world an even sadder and more confusing place than it is already.

    1. NDJ

      Why anyone would put their students off of the eminently serviceable—and oh so easy to use (shift+option+dash on a Mac)—long (or ’em’) dash is beyond me.

      For me, the most important thing about writing for the Internet—aside from good content, of course (which you have aplenty on The Round Place In The Middle)—is readability for the human eye/brain.

      And em-dashes set phrases off in a cleaner manner than parentheses (although I tend to use them a bit, too).

      So, sure: I’ll start researching a piece on the short (‘en’) dash versus the long (’em’) dash. Maybe I’ll even throw a paragraph or three in there about the misunderstood and misused ellipsis especially when ending a sentence or sentence fragment . . .

      (fragment. . . . ?)

      (fragment … ?)

      EDN

Comments, suggestions, additions, and arguments welcome!